Cheryl, you are perfectly right! From the researcher's point of view, I would like to add that I felt wounded at the Government's hints that someone was "abusing" of this situation, making money out of requests for citizenship applications.
Honestly, I am one of those who worked hundreds of hours to research unknown birth places of emigrant ancestors, who traveled to all sort of archives to try tearing brick walls down, who requested uncountable certificates to Town Halls and parishes, and - yes - I was paid for it, because it's my job.
I always thought I was helping my customers to exercise their constitutional rights, nothing less than that.
Was I wrong in doing it? Did I have to say "no" to someone? And if so, to whom, and why?
Hi Elena, of course you’ve done nothing wrong! You’ve helped so many people connect with their ancestors and ancestral towns, and as you know many of us want to do that even when citizenship isn’t an option or has already been obtained. We are proud of our Italian roots and grateful to you for helping us dig them up. What people do with the information you find for them isn’t your responsibility. I’m hearing so many people despairing right now because their hopes and dreams of moving to Italy and becoming contributing members of society have now been ruined. Be proud of the work you do that has such emotional value to your clients!
Thank you so much for publishing this beautifully-written and hopeful article. I was fortunate to be recognized through the NY Consulate in 2022. My adult children, however, if this law stands, will not be able to pursue recognition. This absolutely breaks my heart, especially in light of the current dire situation in the US. My partner and I have plans to retire in the EU next year. I had dreams of all my kids and their eventual families joining us, alas. I’m tempted to move ahead with some basic document acquisition for them, just in case. The “Minor Issue” had me pursuing a 1948 case for them despite my having already being recognized through my grandfather’s line. (Separate discussion, but I’m trying to evaluate overall costs of 7% flat tax in the South v. Spain, France and Portugal as well as Visa for him v. Family reunification residence permits.) Grazie Mille! ❤️
Hi Mia, thank you! I’m so sorry this change affects your children and hope there will be a path forward for them. This is likely to be a long process with lawsuits galore, I suspect, but it seems worthwhile to move forward with your document collection because who knows what will happen. I do think the decreto-legge will pass, but it seems reasonable to hope that they’ll extend the generational limit to GGP. Best of luck (and have fun!) planning your retirement in Europe. Please look beyond tax stuff to what is essential and desirable for you in a community. It’s so important to think about what daily life will look like, and not everyone does that. In bocca al lupo on all fronts!
I've been following this closely since the announcement on Friday, and there's been a lot of conflicting information about the true motivations behind these changes. I suspect that over the next 60 days, as we see how this unfolds, we’ll HOPEFULLY gain more insight into the real reasons behind the government's decision and whether this will actually become law. I completely agree that these restrictions will cut off opportunities for many people who want to reconnect with Italy, contribute to the economy, and even help address the declining birth rate. However, it seems that the government perceives the potential downsides as a greater risk than the benefits... though their reasoning isn’t entirely clear yet. Classic Italy.
When I read the announcement, I immediately thought about you.
I still think that a 'governmental administration that deals so doggedly with this matter, with little competence and so much confusion, always actually aims to divert attention from important failures and serious situations that would demonstrate precisely the general inability to administer. Perhaps, even the exclusive self-interest of the 'administration itself. I am increasingly disarmed and speechless.
We aren’t affected by the new law or the proposals, but thank you. I read the complete text of the law and it’s clear that this was a long time in planning; it’s well thought out and written. The coming months will be very interesting. And as of yesterday, when three “minor Issue” cases were heard at the Supreme Court, we have some hope that that obstacle will go away. Hopefully they will rule before the deadline to pass, reject, or alter the new law. It’s all very complicated.
oh cheryl, thank you for sharing your indefatiguable work. elektra and i spent 1-2 years working up the myriad requirements and could not bring ourselves to sending in $10,000 to attorney's in italy on the very real chance it may have been for naught. we stopped. we took up a parallel process for residencies and visas w/o citizenship for spain. for now, all things are in limbo; the us and global uncertainties are very worrisome. i hope things change. stay well.
Thank you, Felice. I’m curious what path you were pursuing, because attorneys’ rates for two people for a judicial case shouldn’t be nearly that high, and if you planned to apply at a comune in Italy no attorney would be needed. In any case, I wish you well with whatever route you pursue, if you do.
- Curiosity, wanting to understand „why“ is a normal part of being human. I think @Matt Zamuudio’s ideas give food for thought, even if they may not be the actual reasoning behind the proposed changes to Italy’s immigration laws, they may get us closer to understanding the true motivations behind this recent development in Italy. Mindful of being guests, are we increasingly fearful that we cannot comment? Are we ever in the position to do so? If the reason for something is not clear or is absent, it is human to speculate. In current times, in our search for the truth, we will probably do this more and more, especially as, with the emergence social media, „untruth“ is, increasingly, presented to us and „truth“ is diluted or obscured. In the context of this discourse, may I take the liberty of adding some of my own food for thought? Immigrants and emigrants have always been a part of Italy’s history. History shows the points of exodus, of Italians going abroad - in the 50s for example, many Italian left Italy to find work - in Switzerland, the UK (Wales and Yorkshire), Argentinia etc.- seeking work to support their families (often living away from them in dismal conditions), and ta better life later, eventually settling in another country. Today, it seems, (like many other countries) there is a growing intolerance of the mix - of those entering illegally. Perhaps what we’re seeing in Italy stems from deep withiin the Italian psyche a kind of revenge for the brain drain, the disloyalty shown by those who left. The proposed new law could be seen as an attempt to streamline the population for those who remain, to reward the loyal ones. (Doesn’t politics always work for the good of the people? ha-ha). Certainly long discussed, this proposed new law may also have been accelerated / exacerbated by the way in which the EU left Italy with „its“ „boat problem“ - thousands of immigrants who precariously risked their lives (and many who lost it) crossing from the coast of North Africa to Sicily and filtering through Italy to the affluent north …. I witnessed very visible signs of the massive influx, at the zenith, clustering around the border points and spilling over into Switzerland, then heading north. And for a while it was tolerated by Italy. But now there seems to have been „a clear out“. Street traders and illegal migrants workers have, strangely, quietly disappeared. Historically, we know that purifying the population is not a new idea. It does seem, though, that there is a growing trend towards „limitations“ in who can be where and for how long and (US, Ireland).
In this sense, the EU (seen as „a region“), long under pressure by some members to find alternative solutions to migration, through the introduction of its EES System, (which tracks the movement of people into and within the „Schengen Raum“) may also be seen as attempting to „streamline“ it population. Also without loud, external fanfare. I agree with Cheryl the proposed new law in Italy is probably largely „internal politics“. But significant is that jure sanguinis has existed in Italian Law for a long time and is embedded in the Constitution. The new proposals go against this. We’re watching something similar in the U.S. A new phenomena is the way in which a country is, apparently, „turning against its own“. The reason for furore. A reason why, in Italy, it will probably take a long time, with modifications, before the proposal actually passes into Italy’s Civil Code. But I’m certain it will, albeit in a modified form. Notable, though, is that Italy is also a member of the EU. Seen within this wider context, known for its innovation, Italy may well be setting a trend in Europe.
ain't that the truth. we've spent four years, thousands of dollars, innumerable hours of research, making corrections (more to come, ie amendments probably - and then the emotional roller coaster of the past few months has been insane! I am mailing in my application tomorrow to the Los Angeles Consulate. And then will wait two more years to see how the plot thickens.
I’m certainly lacking in context here, but I suspect a few things:
- Italy doesn’t want more Italian (citizens) at the moment, hence laws that appear viable but are filled with roadblocks
- Italy, being a small country, wants to differentiate from the policies countries like Ireland, which have followed immigration policies like larger countries (USA), and is now on track to have a minority ethnic Irish population
- Italy seems to be attempting to make a distinction between the grey area of being Italian (by blood) and Italian (by citizenship / legally). As in the US, there is no such thing really as a “by blood” American, only this who achieve this status by citizenship.
But really, I’m nowhere near qualified to speak on this. It’s just interesting and these thoughts popped up. Sadly this is less than ideal for your case, but I think Italy is one of very few EU countries that is standing up for themselves / looking out for their national good vs. “globalizing“ to their own detriment.
Globalization, widely touted as The Righteous Way, is not necessarily the right or required route for all countries. Italy seems to recognize this, even if it makes them unpopular to onlookers.
This doesn’t affect our case, but thank you. Jure sanguinis has existed in Italian law since 1865, far pre-dating any trend toward globalization. That Italy now wants to limit its scope has more to do with current internal politics, I think. But probably neither of us is qualified to speak on the topic. Thanks for your thoughts, though.
Cheryl, you are perfectly right! From the researcher's point of view, I would like to add that I felt wounded at the Government's hints that someone was "abusing" of this situation, making money out of requests for citizenship applications.
Honestly, I am one of those who worked hundreds of hours to research unknown birth places of emigrant ancestors, who traveled to all sort of archives to try tearing brick walls down, who requested uncountable certificates to Town Halls and parishes, and - yes - I was paid for it, because it's my job.
I always thought I was helping my customers to exercise their constitutional rights, nothing less than that.
Was I wrong in doing it? Did I have to say "no" to someone? And if so, to whom, and why?
Hi Elena, of course you’ve done nothing wrong! You’ve helped so many people connect with their ancestors and ancestral towns, and as you know many of us want to do that even when citizenship isn’t an option or has already been obtained. We are proud of our Italian roots and grateful to you for helping us dig them up. What people do with the information you find for them isn’t your responsibility. I’m hearing so many people despairing right now because their hopes and dreams of moving to Italy and becoming contributing members of society have now been ruined. Be proud of the work you do that has such emotional value to your clients!
Thank you so much for publishing this beautifully-written and hopeful article. I was fortunate to be recognized through the NY Consulate in 2022. My adult children, however, if this law stands, will not be able to pursue recognition. This absolutely breaks my heart, especially in light of the current dire situation in the US. My partner and I have plans to retire in the EU next year. I had dreams of all my kids and their eventual families joining us, alas. I’m tempted to move ahead with some basic document acquisition for them, just in case. The “Minor Issue” had me pursuing a 1948 case for them despite my having already being recognized through my grandfather’s line. (Separate discussion, but I’m trying to evaluate overall costs of 7% flat tax in the South v. Spain, France and Portugal as well as Visa for him v. Family reunification residence permits.) Grazie Mille! ❤️
Hi Mia, thank you! I’m so sorry this change affects your children and hope there will be a path forward for them. This is likely to be a long process with lawsuits galore, I suspect, but it seems worthwhile to move forward with your document collection because who knows what will happen. I do think the decreto-legge will pass, but it seems reasonable to hope that they’ll extend the generational limit to GGP. Best of luck (and have fun!) planning your retirement in Europe. Please look beyond tax stuff to what is essential and desirable for you in a community. It’s so important to think about what daily life will look like, and not everyone does that. In bocca al lupo on all fronts!
I've been following this closely since the announcement on Friday, and there's been a lot of conflicting information about the true motivations behind these changes. I suspect that over the next 60 days, as we see how this unfolds, we’ll HOPEFULLY gain more insight into the real reasons behind the government's decision and whether this will actually become law. I completely agree that these restrictions will cut off opportunities for many people who want to reconnect with Italy, contribute to the economy, and even help address the declining birth rate. However, it seems that the government perceives the potential downsides as a greater risk than the benefits... though their reasoning isn’t entirely clear yet. Classic Italy.
One thing is for sure—it’ll be interesting! I suspect there will be modifications at the least.
When I read the announcement, I immediately thought about you.
I still think that a 'governmental administration that deals so doggedly with this matter, with little competence and so much confusion, always actually aims to divert attention from important failures and serious situations that would demonstrate precisely the general inability to administer. Perhaps, even the exclusive self-interest of the 'administration itself. I am increasingly disarmed and speechless.
We aren’t affected by the new law or the proposals, but thank you. I read the complete text of the law and it’s clear that this was a long time in planning; it’s well thought out and written. The coming months will be very interesting. And as of yesterday, when three “minor Issue” cases were heard at the Supreme Court, we have some hope that that obstacle will go away. Hopefully they will rule before the deadline to pass, reject, or alter the new law. It’s all very complicated.
oh cheryl, thank you for sharing your indefatiguable work. elektra and i spent 1-2 years working up the myriad requirements and could not bring ourselves to sending in $10,000 to attorney's in italy on the very real chance it may have been for naught. we stopped. we took up a parallel process for residencies and visas w/o citizenship for spain. for now, all things are in limbo; the us and global uncertainties are very worrisome. i hope things change. stay well.
Thank you, Felice. I’m curious what path you were pursuing, because attorneys’ rates for two people for a judicial case shouldn’t be nearly that high, and if you planned to apply at a comune in Italy no attorney would be needed. In any case, I wish you well with whatever route you pursue, if you do.
- Curiosity, wanting to understand „why“ is a normal part of being human. I think @Matt Zamuudio’s ideas give food for thought, even if they may not be the actual reasoning behind the proposed changes to Italy’s immigration laws, they may get us closer to understanding the true motivations behind this recent development in Italy. Mindful of being guests, are we increasingly fearful that we cannot comment? Are we ever in the position to do so? If the reason for something is not clear or is absent, it is human to speculate. In current times, in our search for the truth, we will probably do this more and more, especially as, with the emergence social media, „untruth“ is, increasingly, presented to us and „truth“ is diluted or obscured. In the context of this discourse, may I take the liberty of adding some of my own food for thought? Immigrants and emigrants have always been a part of Italy’s history. History shows the points of exodus, of Italians going abroad - in the 50s for example, many Italian left Italy to find work - in Switzerland, the UK (Wales and Yorkshire), Argentinia etc.- seeking work to support their families (often living away from them in dismal conditions), and ta better life later, eventually settling in another country. Today, it seems, (like many other countries) there is a growing intolerance of the mix - of those entering illegally. Perhaps what we’re seeing in Italy stems from deep withiin the Italian psyche a kind of revenge for the brain drain, the disloyalty shown by those who left. The proposed new law could be seen as an attempt to streamline the population for those who remain, to reward the loyal ones. (Doesn’t politics always work for the good of the people? ha-ha). Certainly long discussed, this proposed new law may also have been accelerated / exacerbated by the way in which the EU left Italy with „its“ „boat problem“ - thousands of immigrants who precariously risked their lives (and many who lost it) crossing from the coast of North Africa to Sicily and filtering through Italy to the affluent north …. I witnessed very visible signs of the massive influx, at the zenith, clustering around the border points and spilling over into Switzerland, then heading north. And for a while it was tolerated by Italy. But now there seems to have been „a clear out“. Street traders and illegal migrants workers have, strangely, quietly disappeared. Historically, we know that purifying the population is not a new idea. It does seem, though, that there is a growing trend towards „limitations“ in who can be where and for how long and (US, Ireland).
In this sense, the EU (seen as „a region“), long under pressure by some members to find alternative solutions to migration, through the introduction of its EES System, (which tracks the movement of people into and within the „Schengen Raum“) may also be seen as attempting to „streamline“ it population. Also without loud, external fanfare. I agree with Cheryl the proposed new law in Italy is probably largely „internal politics“. But significant is that jure sanguinis has existed in Italian Law for a long time and is embedded in the Constitution. The new proposals go against this. We’re watching something similar in the U.S. A new phenomena is the way in which a country is, apparently, „turning against its own“. The reason for furore. A reason why, in Italy, it will probably take a long time, with modifications, before the proposal actually passes into Italy’s Civil Code. But I’m certain it will, albeit in a modified form. Notable, though, is that Italy is also a member of the EU. Seen within this wider context, known for its innovation, Italy may well be setting a trend in Europe.
Wow did you really say that it's a 10-year wait for a consulate appointment in Brazil!?? That is beyond shocking.
Thank you for this informative piece! It does sound like Italy has some answering to do regarding its citizenship laws.
ain't that the truth. we've spent four years, thousands of dollars, innumerable hours of research, making corrections (more to come, ie amendments probably - and then the emotional roller coaster of the past few months has been insane! I am mailing in my application tomorrow to the Los Angeles Consulate. And then will wait two more years to see how the plot thickens.
Thank you for explaining this. I read several articles and nothing was as clear as your post.
As for me, still trying to get an appointment with the consulate in San Francisco for my visa. Frustrating AF.
In the meantime, I’m thrilled to be home in Sicily for 2 months ❤️ piano piano
I’m certainly lacking in context here, but I suspect a few things:
- Italy doesn’t want more Italian (citizens) at the moment, hence laws that appear viable but are filled with roadblocks
- Italy, being a small country, wants to differentiate from the policies countries like Ireland, which have followed immigration policies like larger countries (USA), and is now on track to have a minority ethnic Irish population
- Italy seems to be attempting to make a distinction between the grey area of being Italian (by blood) and Italian (by citizenship / legally). As in the US, there is no such thing really as a “by blood” American, only this who achieve this status by citizenship.
But really, I’m nowhere near qualified to speak on this. It’s just interesting and these thoughts popped up. Sadly this is less than ideal for your case, but I think Italy is one of very few EU countries that is standing up for themselves / looking out for their national good vs. “globalizing“ to their own detriment.
Globalization, widely touted as The Righteous Way, is not necessarily the right or required route for all countries. Italy seems to recognize this, even if it makes them unpopular to onlookers.
This doesn’t affect our case, but thank you. Jure sanguinis has existed in Italian law since 1865, far pre-dating any trend toward globalization. That Italy now wants to limit its scope has more to do with current internal politics, I think. But probably neither of us is qualified to speak on the topic. Thanks for your thoughts, though.