I experienced this, too, when I lived in Italy for the better part of a decade. I don’t think it’s just envy or jealousy. It’s the time difference (always daunting) and the fact that the US and Italy operate at two different speeds. I used to enjoy two-hour coffees with friends on my old street of Via Reoubblica. Here in NYC, the idea of doing something so leisurely and charming is unthinkable. The constant, frantic urgency to make money means that people are simply too tired at the end of the day to talk to people who aren’t right in front of them. Even retirees are busy, busy, busy. We are a country that never rests, a capitalist hamster wheel that never stops spinning.
I don’t believe their neglect is personal. Expats just get shuffled to the back of the deck. You explained it in the title of this piece.
Sorry you had that experience too; it's apparently (and depressingly) super common, judging by the comments here and others I've received. I think your point about different speeds of life is valid, but the time difference, idk. Given I've had a significant time difference for my entire adult life, it seems like something else is going on. Chissà?
Ciao Cheryl. My husband and I are coming to Italy November for 9 months while I apply for my citizenship and we have encountered this already. But I wonder if it’s a little bit of dare I say envy or jealousy ? Most of our friends and family wouldn’t even consider doing something like this so their remarks are flippant
However, like you thankfully our children are 100% behind us and are saving vacation days so they can visit and see it for themselves.
Yes, you're probably right, in some cases. I'm sorry you've encountered it already. Good luck with your move, and I hope all goes well with the citizenship.
Whether living 25 miles away, or on an opposite coast, or across an ocean, sometimes the move brings other elements into one's life such that others are unable to relate to the "immigrant's new life." My husband, our 2 young children, and I moved from California to Southeast Asia in the late 1980s for 3 yrs, where we had no telephone in our house (no telephone lines where we lived) and, obviously, no internet. I once did go to another location to telephone my parents (had to call collect) once during our first year, but they didn't offer for me to call them again "collect." I think they believed in the "aerogram letter writing" and "carbon copy letter" system, with me receiving the almost illegible last copy of the 5X carbon letter. I tried to tell them many different things we experienced, via hand written letters on onion-skin paper, including about some local unrest and nearby bombing, where exactly we lived, etc. but my parents never really understood what I tried to communicate to them. It seemed that in order for us to receive any communication from friends/family/etc., we had to be the ones to initiate the communication .... As far as a "free text messaging" system, if you are referring to WhatsApp, I refuse to use it because it's owned by FaceBook ..... In the early 1990s when one of my sisters, and her husband, went to Mongolia and stayed there about 8-9 years, which had only 3 telephone operators in that country at that time, and knowing the importance of telephone calls, I made an effort to telephone them periodically. It was difficult to even get through until I knew to request an English-speaking operator to connect the call. They, too, did not initially have a telephone but an adjacent apartment did, so we were able to make limited voice contact. Effort take time, and we have become so used to living an "easy" life -- if it's hard, then who is going to make the effort?
Yes, you've had real experience with having to make an effort living abroad before digital communication was around. I can imagine how difficult that was, but brava for making the effort! As far as WhatsApp goes, yes, but there's also Signal and probably others.
This is so interesting to me. When I moved from the East Coast to CA 21 years ago, I was told the same thing by many loved ones. Sometimes they phrased it as a question, "When are you coming back?" Something happens when we change locus in a big way. We are known in a certain context and when that context changes, everyone must take a look at where they are and any assumptions they may have.
In other ways, I've felt more conflicts as time goes by. The distance can feel so huge especially as those we love age or fall ill.
You make a good point about being known in a certain context. I moved from the East Coast to Chicago without losing any friends/family connections, but when I moved to CA from Chicago I lost my very close friend of 8 years there. She said she never wanted to travel, Chicago was enough for her, so I guess it's not terribly surprising. And yes, I totally agree about things changing as we age.
«Why has communication become so difficult, undesirable, or whatever other reason the left-behinders feel justifies their silence?»
You know, Cheryl, I'm not so sure it has to do with emigration, because I've noticed a similar behaviour among my own very large family (aunts, uncles, and my kazillion cousins...) and also among my circle of friends: a lot of people in the past few years just “ghosted out”, so to speak, without any explanation, and above all without the need for anyone among us to emigrate anywhere, we're all still living in the same places we've been living for the past ten, twenty, thirty years... A close friend of twenty years simply stopped responding to calls and messages (but he still follows me on every social thingy...), another friend who lives in my same city just stopped talking to me a few weeks ago (but she keeps on following me on every social platform, as well, she's even subscribed to two of my newsletters here on Substack, BUT she won't speak to me in person, which doesn't make any sense to me), and don't get me started on my family members... I fear people have become more and more self-centred and, well, “menefreghista” despite being constantly in touch with the entire world through social media.
Moreover, we thought we would've come out of COVID better than we were before, but that proved to be a false hope, too, as something went wrong somewhere during the process...
I'm so sorry about the ghosting, especially among family and a friend of 20 years! Honestly, it's been depressing to hear of so many people who've shared this experience. Maybe it does have a lot to do with post-Covid weirdness, which I think has made menefreghismo worse. Whatever the cause, I hate that it happens and in such hurtful ways. But now that I think about it, when I moved to California from Chicago, where I lived for 8 years, my very dear friend there (we used to call each other "Sis") ghosted me. Sigh.
Sounds harsh, but I am relieved that those “left behind” family members of mine in the US are silent. I needed the space to clear my head and focus on my new life regardless of their thoughts that I was crazy to move to Spain, that I was making a mistake, that I would hate it, etc. My supportive friends and other family members are proud of me and we regularly communicate via our free app. Many are coming to visit.
To finish my comment from earlier...a challenge, of course! Especially since I'm 81 and partially disabled. Hubby younger. I have to look at it that those who stay in touch really care and love us. Those who don't probably didn't care enough to begin with. Painful? Of course! But in my heart, I know I am where I've longed to be all my life...the home of my ancestors. I look at my Mama's picture every day and say, " I've finally come home, Mama". That to me is priceless. Let the chaff fall by the wayside. The " is still good!
This must be especially difficult when you haven't yet established friendships in the new home town/city/country. I worry about this if/when I ever make that move. Sure, I have relatives, but I don't want them to become a crutch. Great topic!
I’ve experienced this even moving away from Idaho to Tulsa. And now that I’m back, suddenly, old friends have reached out as if I was never gone. But Ive moved on. Or I’m holding a grudge. Could be either. Bottom line, if you couldn’t make time to even try and keep our friendship alive (ie respond to me when I reached out) well, I don’t really have any interest now. :/
You’re right about folks taking it personally- as if you left them. So weird.
I’m with you—they can’t neglect you and then just act like they didn’t. Very sorry that happened to you. Unfortunately, based on responses to my post, that neglect isn’t uncommon. 😞
Great piece Cheryl. My wife and I have been getting the same reaction from a lot of our family, and we haven't even moved yet! We took an extended trip to Sicily in 2018 and have been back twice since, and found a town there we want to make a big part of our retirement. We have since bought a little piece of land and have started the process of building a little house. We have both been to Italy many times since the mid 90s, and we started the citizenship process when we got back in '18. My wife was just recognized 2 weeks ago, so now I will begin the process of applying for citizenship though marriage.
The interesting thing is, although we both come from large New York Italian-American families, who cherish and celebrate IA culture, the response is often, "Why do you want to do that!? Isn't it enough to visit every few years?" And the funny thing is, they don't even do that! Some of them have only been to Italy once or twice, and most have never been. When they go on vacation, they go to the Caribbean, or on a cruise... or to other Northern European, more "orderly" countries. It's almost like they don't want to actually go there and experience the true Italian culture. Maybe they are satisfied with their Sunday gravy and the few old dialect expressions they like to throw around...?
Whatever it is, ultimately I think we are the weirdos! Not everyone is turned on by seeing new places and experiencing different cultures - in fact it seems to me that most people, of any culture, are most comfortable staying safely within that culture. It must scare them and make them insecure when we get all excited about a foreign place. Meanwhile, your true friends are the ones that are excited for you, and who want to know more about your experience... so let's be thankful for them and let the rest be. :)
Hi Joe, thanks, glad you liked the piece—but noooooo, it's happening when you haven't even left yet? Yes, there surely are plenty of people whose Italian roots don't tug at their hearts. And those of us who do emigrate certainly aren't the norm, so if that makes us weird, so be it! I think some people like the idea of travel, but like you say, they want controlled and orderly, so they do big group tours or cruises or go to "orderly" countries (I like that!), but to uproot themselves or even wing it on a solo (or semi-) trip is too threatening. I can't judge them for that; we all have our comfort zone limits. Like you say, all we can do is appreciate the ones who are enthusiastic. Btw, I'm with you on loving Sicily, and I hope all goes well with your house and retirement plans!
As many commenters have said, there are many reasons loss of communication happens. Although there are so many ways to " stay connected' these days , it takes work , effort and time. Nothing compares to seeing people in person ! You really have to be very Intentional about connecting. It could be the time difference and just life's demands that make it hard but I always tell my children to call their grandfather even for 5 minutes makes a difference. It doesn't have to be a grand gesture!! I would like to think that if I moved to Italy, people would visit me but I don't know if they would!
I am Italian and went to live to Spain 11 years and because my family was dysfunctional to be far from them was actually a relief (even if I admit it must have been painful for my mother not to hear from me very often). But what I realize now is that keeping friendships alive is more and more difficult. I call it a side effect of a liquid society. I'm always the one knocking the door with a hello from time to time...
I am not familiar with the American mindset, but what about Italians? Do we tend to act the same?
Liquid society—well said! And good for you for making the effort. Unfortunately, I think this is a pretty universal problem, judging by what I've heard. So sad.
This is soooo true. But I also agree there are probaby a lot of issues, differing for different people, behind it. I do believe some, if not many, of my friends are really quite jealous and dealing with feelings of "why can't i find it within myself to just pick up and go"... I also know that the time difference between here and the west coast is difficult, on my end as well - seems when i think of calling it's the wrong time and when it's the right time it's the last thing on my mind at the end of the day. And i'm sure some people have friends that fall under the 'how can you hate America enough to leave it, you traitor". I, too, am lucky that my daughters and most of my family are more excited about me being here than i am! And I'm really excited still!
You're right, it seems like a pretty complex issue and people have lots of deep-seated reasons for their behavior, voiced or unvoiced. Yay for having a (mostly) supportive family!
I have a horrible tendency to "not care" if people back home (Canada) are in touch or not, although I have three or four friends "back there" with whom I meet frequently via Zoom (a free account gets you 40 minute sessions). Seeing their faces and bodies while talking makes the time more alive. My wife has maintained a couple of very important girlfriend (these girls all in their 70s) relationships via WhatsApp.
Then there are others, including family members, with whom I had very little contact anyway while "back home" (HOME IS HERE NOW!!) so nothing much has changed in that regard. Nothing to miss.
And there are yet others that were of a social kind, incidental to life in a neighbourhood or town, or mutual circle of friends, none of which were particularly intimate when we lived among them. In such situations who and what we are in the core of our beings was camouflaged in the typical niceties of social contact. Our decision to move to Italy as immigrants revealed something about us that, in the minds of this social matrix confirmed something about us. We are odd.
In their eyes our decision (while in our 70s) to move might confirm our previously suspected or believed, dimwittedness, or our bravery, or our impulsiveness, perhaps our arrogance or disdain of them or our previous town, province, country, church....blah blah blah. The wind of the changes we made blew off our social camouflage.
Just as the person who quits so they can't be fired, we exiled ourselves rather than being our mostly hidden odd selves within the social matrices we used to be integrated with. The oil of the niceties that used to work in that context serve no purpose. Such is the Elba room we created for this part of our lives.
We're not going back and one of the reasons is all our old "friends" have revealed themselves too. But I know this, even though we have made new friends here, if we did go back, over time many of them would also fall by the wayside. God give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
Additionally, our daughter moved to South America a year after college and most of her college friends slipped away. Only one has come to see her in the 15 years she’s been gone. Only a few stay in touch via messaging apps. With the rise of Social Media as a menace she’s backed away from those apps and just come to appreciate the few people from “back home” who care to keep in touch. So, you’re not alone.
I experienced this, too, when I lived in Italy for the better part of a decade. I don’t think it’s just envy or jealousy. It’s the time difference (always daunting) and the fact that the US and Italy operate at two different speeds. I used to enjoy two-hour coffees with friends on my old street of Via Reoubblica. Here in NYC, the idea of doing something so leisurely and charming is unthinkable. The constant, frantic urgency to make money means that people are simply too tired at the end of the day to talk to people who aren’t right in front of them. Even retirees are busy, busy, busy. We are a country that never rests, a capitalist hamster wheel that never stops spinning.
I don’t believe their neglect is personal. Expats just get shuffled to the back of the deck. You explained it in the title of this piece.
Sorry you had that experience too; it's apparently (and depressingly) super common, judging by the comments here and others I've received. I think your point about different speeds of life is valid, but the time difference, idk. Given I've had a significant time difference for my entire adult life, it seems like something else is going on. Chissà?
Ciao Cheryl. My husband and I are coming to Italy November for 9 months while I apply for my citizenship and we have encountered this already. But I wonder if it’s a little bit of dare I say envy or jealousy ? Most of our friends and family wouldn’t even consider doing something like this so their remarks are flippant
However, like you thankfully our children are 100% behind us and are saving vacation days so they can visit and see it for themselves.
Yes, you're probably right, in some cases. I'm sorry you've encountered it already. Good luck with your move, and I hope all goes well with the citizenship.
Thank you ! I am cautiously optimistic !
Whether living 25 miles away, or on an opposite coast, or across an ocean, sometimes the move brings other elements into one's life such that others are unable to relate to the "immigrant's new life." My husband, our 2 young children, and I moved from California to Southeast Asia in the late 1980s for 3 yrs, where we had no telephone in our house (no telephone lines where we lived) and, obviously, no internet. I once did go to another location to telephone my parents (had to call collect) once during our first year, but they didn't offer for me to call them again "collect." I think they believed in the "aerogram letter writing" and "carbon copy letter" system, with me receiving the almost illegible last copy of the 5X carbon letter. I tried to tell them many different things we experienced, via hand written letters on onion-skin paper, including about some local unrest and nearby bombing, where exactly we lived, etc. but my parents never really understood what I tried to communicate to them. It seemed that in order for us to receive any communication from friends/family/etc., we had to be the ones to initiate the communication .... As far as a "free text messaging" system, if you are referring to WhatsApp, I refuse to use it because it's owned by FaceBook ..... In the early 1990s when one of my sisters, and her husband, went to Mongolia and stayed there about 8-9 years, which had only 3 telephone operators in that country at that time, and knowing the importance of telephone calls, I made an effort to telephone them periodically. It was difficult to even get through until I knew to request an English-speaking operator to connect the call. They, too, did not initially have a telephone but an adjacent apartment did, so we were able to make limited voice contact. Effort take time, and we have become so used to living an "easy" life -- if it's hard, then who is going to make the effort?
Yes, you've had real experience with having to make an effort living abroad before digital communication was around. I can imagine how difficult that was, but brava for making the effort! As far as WhatsApp goes, yes, but there's also Signal and probably others.
This is so interesting to me. When I moved from the East Coast to CA 21 years ago, I was told the same thing by many loved ones. Sometimes they phrased it as a question, "When are you coming back?" Something happens when we change locus in a big way. We are known in a certain context and when that context changes, everyone must take a look at where they are and any assumptions they may have.
In other ways, I've felt more conflicts as time goes by. The distance can feel so huge especially as those we love age or fall ill.
You make a good point about being known in a certain context. I moved from the East Coast to Chicago without losing any friends/family connections, but when I moved to CA from Chicago I lost my very close friend of 8 years there. She said she never wanted to travel, Chicago was enough for her, so I guess it's not terribly surprising. And yes, I totally agree about things changing as we age.
«Why has communication become so difficult, undesirable, or whatever other reason the left-behinders feel justifies their silence?»
You know, Cheryl, I'm not so sure it has to do with emigration, because I've noticed a similar behaviour among my own very large family (aunts, uncles, and my kazillion cousins...) and also among my circle of friends: a lot of people in the past few years just “ghosted out”, so to speak, without any explanation, and above all without the need for anyone among us to emigrate anywhere, we're all still living in the same places we've been living for the past ten, twenty, thirty years... A close friend of twenty years simply stopped responding to calls and messages (but he still follows me on every social thingy...), another friend who lives in my same city just stopped talking to me a few weeks ago (but she keeps on following me on every social platform, as well, she's even subscribed to two of my newsletters here on Substack, BUT she won't speak to me in person, which doesn't make any sense to me), and don't get me started on my family members... I fear people have become more and more self-centred and, well, “menefreghista” despite being constantly in touch with the entire world through social media.
Moreover, we thought we would've come out of COVID better than we were before, but that proved to be a false hope, too, as something went wrong somewhere during the process...
I'm so sorry about the ghosting, especially among family and a friend of 20 years! Honestly, it's been depressing to hear of so many people who've shared this experience. Maybe it does have a lot to do with post-Covid weirdness, which I think has made menefreghismo worse. Whatever the cause, I hate that it happens and in such hurtful ways. But now that I think about it, when I moved to California from Chicago, where I lived for 8 years, my very dear friend there (we used to call each other "Sis") ghosted me. Sigh.
Sounds harsh, but I am relieved that those “left behind” family members of mine in the US are silent. I needed the space to clear my head and focus on my new life regardless of their thoughts that I was crazy to move to Spain, that I was making a mistake, that I would hate it, etc. My supportive friends and other family members are proud of me and we regularly communicate via our free app. Many are coming to visit.
I'm glad it's not a hardship for you, and hooray for all those visitors!
JEALOUSY. Small-minded, parochial, mandate-complying, whiny, not-worth-giving-another-thought-to, ex-acquaintances. Provincial, short-sighted, petty, envious. Ciao!
Yes, in some cases. In others, it's clear something else is going on. The result is the same though! (unfortunately)
To finish my comment from earlier...a challenge, of course! Especially since I'm 81 and partially disabled. Hubby younger. I have to look at it that those who stay in touch really care and love us. Those who don't probably didn't care enough to begin with. Painful? Of course! But in my heart, I know I am where I've longed to be all my life...the home of my ancestors. I look at my Mama's picture every day and say, " I've finally come home, Mama". That to me is priceless. Let the chaff fall by the wayside. The " is still good!
I'm so glad you've found a home here and feel good about it! You definitely know your own heart.
This must be especially difficult when you haven't yet established friendships in the new home town/city/country. I worry about this if/when I ever make that move. Sure, I have relatives, but I don't want them to become a crutch. Great topic!
It's so individual, and from what readers have told me, it's as likely to happen in a domestic or even local move. Some people will stick, some won't.
I’ve experienced this even moving away from Idaho to Tulsa. And now that I’m back, suddenly, old friends have reached out as if I was never gone. But Ive moved on. Or I’m holding a grudge. Could be either. Bottom line, if you couldn’t make time to even try and keep our friendship alive (ie respond to me when I reached out) well, I don’t really have any interest now. :/
You’re right about folks taking it personally- as if you left them. So weird.
I’m with you—they can’t neglect you and then just act like they didn’t. Very sorry that happened to you. Unfortunately, based on responses to my post, that neglect isn’t uncommon. 😞
Great piece Cheryl. My wife and I have been getting the same reaction from a lot of our family, and we haven't even moved yet! We took an extended trip to Sicily in 2018 and have been back twice since, and found a town there we want to make a big part of our retirement. We have since bought a little piece of land and have started the process of building a little house. We have both been to Italy many times since the mid 90s, and we started the citizenship process when we got back in '18. My wife was just recognized 2 weeks ago, so now I will begin the process of applying for citizenship though marriage.
The interesting thing is, although we both come from large New York Italian-American families, who cherish and celebrate IA culture, the response is often, "Why do you want to do that!? Isn't it enough to visit every few years?" And the funny thing is, they don't even do that! Some of them have only been to Italy once or twice, and most have never been. When they go on vacation, they go to the Caribbean, or on a cruise... or to other Northern European, more "orderly" countries. It's almost like they don't want to actually go there and experience the true Italian culture. Maybe they are satisfied with their Sunday gravy and the few old dialect expressions they like to throw around...?
Whatever it is, ultimately I think we are the weirdos! Not everyone is turned on by seeing new places and experiencing different cultures - in fact it seems to me that most people, of any culture, are most comfortable staying safely within that culture. It must scare them and make them insecure when we get all excited about a foreign place. Meanwhile, your true friends are the ones that are excited for you, and who want to know more about your experience... so let's be thankful for them and let the rest be. :)
Hi Joe, thanks, glad you liked the piece—but noooooo, it's happening when you haven't even left yet? Yes, there surely are plenty of people whose Italian roots don't tug at their hearts. And those of us who do emigrate certainly aren't the norm, so if that makes us weird, so be it! I think some people like the idea of travel, but like you say, they want controlled and orderly, so they do big group tours or cruises or go to "orderly" countries (I like that!), but to uproot themselves or even wing it on a solo (or semi-) trip is too threatening. I can't judge them for that; we all have our comfort zone limits. Like you say, all we can do is appreciate the ones who are enthusiastic. Btw, I'm with you on loving Sicily, and I hope all goes well with your house and retirement plans!
As many commenters have said, there are many reasons loss of communication happens. Although there are so many ways to " stay connected' these days , it takes work , effort and time. Nothing compares to seeing people in person ! You really have to be very Intentional about connecting. It could be the time difference and just life's demands that make it hard but I always tell my children to call their grandfather even for 5 minutes makes a difference. It doesn't have to be a grand gesture!! I would like to think that if I moved to Italy, people would visit me but I don't know if they would!
Yes, that 5-minute call means so much! Brava for pushing your children to do that.
I am Italian and went to live to Spain 11 years and because my family was dysfunctional to be far from them was actually a relief (even if I admit it must have been painful for my mother not to hear from me very often). But what I realize now is that keeping friendships alive is more and more difficult. I call it a side effect of a liquid society. I'm always the one knocking the door with a hello from time to time...
I am not familiar with the American mindset, but what about Italians? Do we tend to act the same?
Liquid society—well said! And good for you for making the effort. Unfortunately, I think this is a pretty universal problem, judging by what I've heard. So sad.
😔
This is soooo true. But I also agree there are probaby a lot of issues, differing for different people, behind it. I do believe some, if not many, of my friends are really quite jealous and dealing with feelings of "why can't i find it within myself to just pick up and go"... I also know that the time difference between here and the west coast is difficult, on my end as well - seems when i think of calling it's the wrong time and when it's the right time it's the last thing on my mind at the end of the day. And i'm sure some people have friends that fall under the 'how can you hate America enough to leave it, you traitor". I, too, am lucky that my daughters and most of my family are more excited about me being here than i am! And I'm really excited still!
You're right, it seems like a pretty complex issue and people have lots of deep-seated reasons for their behavior, voiced or unvoiced. Yay for having a (mostly) supportive family!
I have a horrible tendency to "not care" if people back home (Canada) are in touch or not, although I have three or four friends "back there" with whom I meet frequently via Zoom (a free account gets you 40 minute sessions). Seeing their faces and bodies while talking makes the time more alive. My wife has maintained a couple of very important girlfriend (these girls all in their 70s) relationships via WhatsApp.
Then there are others, including family members, with whom I had very little contact anyway while "back home" (HOME IS HERE NOW!!) so nothing much has changed in that regard. Nothing to miss.
And there are yet others that were of a social kind, incidental to life in a neighbourhood or town, or mutual circle of friends, none of which were particularly intimate when we lived among them. In such situations who and what we are in the core of our beings was camouflaged in the typical niceties of social contact. Our decision to move to Italy as immigrants revealed something about us that, in the minds of this social matrix confirmed something about us. We are odd.
In their eyes our decision (while in our 70s) to move might confirm our previously suspected or believed, dimwittedness, or our bravery, or our impulsiveness, perhaps our arrogance or disdain of them or our previous town, province, country, church....blah blah blah. The wind of the changes we made blew off our social camouflage.
Just as the person who quits so they can't be fired, we exiled ourselves rather than being our mostly hidden odd selves within the social matrices we used to be integrated with. The oil of the niceties that used to work in that context serve no purpose. Such is the Elba room we created for this part of our lives.
We're not going back and one of the reasons is all our old "friends" have revealed themselves too. But I know this, even though we have made new friends here, if we did go back, over time many of them would also fall by the wayside. God give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
Like you, I don't care about the peripherals; it's the loved ones I'm having trouble coping with. Fortunately not many of them, but still.
Additionally, our daughter moved to South America a year after college and most of her college friends slipped away. Only one has come to see her in the 15 years she’s been gone. Only a few stay in touch via messaging apps. With the rise of Social Media as a menace she’s backed away from those apps and just come to appreciate the few people from “back home” who care to keep in touch. So, you’re not alone.