Oh my gosh! I have quit going onto the expat sites because all I see are complaints!!! "they make me do this...." "i can't do this....." "they are asking for this...." - the entitlement is ridiculous - but, coming from an American (me), not surprising. Add to that the general attitude toward "illegal" immigrants in the States, i also find it not just a little hypocritical! I, personally, find that Italy is keen on keeping on top of the immigration of stranieri while being open to them IF they agree to be a part of the country and not just using it. I haven't found any requirements here that i would not expect to find if i were immigrating to America - and I have certainly been welcomed more warmly than many immigrants would be welcomed there....(okay - that might have been a bit cynical but ....) Anyhow - great piece!
It's painful, isn't it? Totally agree with you, and thanks for reading and commenting. I'm always appreciative when people take the time to say they like my work.
Hi Cheryl. Great article and I agree. Please consider not using the name Karen as an insult. That could have happened to any name and unfortunately some people are not differentiating what it has become with the human beings with that name and mistreating them, because of adults perpetuating it. My Italian friends think its bizzare and awful. Cheryl is a lovely name bye the way. I'm sure your parents named you with love and care,as it's a precious part of your identity. Consider being better than that.
Point taken (though I could have done without the chastising "be better"), and since it was a throwaway remark and not essential to my own point, I've deleted it. I don't aim to offend. Glad you liked the rest of the piece, and thanks for reading.
Thank.you for reflecting and removing. Sorry you took my last sentence as chastising, as I felt I wrote a kind response. But note that some may consider some of the tone of your article ("pointing a finger" , mad, etc.) chastising, but I found it to be spot on, if people are attempting to do that.
You did, overall. And you’re right, what I wrote is chastising—of people who do indeed break the law, and maybe making them feel scrutinized will make them think twice about their actions. If only!
This was excellent. We are here for 365 tax paying days a year on an ERV. One of my guilty pleasures is those expat (another complicated word. I was an expat for almost 30 years. Now I am an immigrant) Facebook groups, watching the misinformation & outrage comments fly by.
Thanks, Gillian! I’m an immigrant too; it’s an important distinction. (I wrote about the difference between an immigrant and an expat in another post.) And yes, the amount of misinformation in those groups is astonishing, and unfortunately impossible to combat.
Thank you. I'm lucky, as an EU citizen I can move to Italy if I want (and I would love to!), but I share your feelings and comments about those who appear to think that reciprocal agreements just do not apply to them! I see so many in various social media groups who, as you rightly point out, try to "get around" things. Would they, or do they, try the same in their home countries? I wonder. Excellently written piece.
I find it interesting that Italy is struggling with population decline and has done extensive/drastic steps to encourage immigration, such as the one Euro houses for sale, and on the other hand, Italy throws a n ocean of rules, regulations that seem to make things almost impossible for people to immigrate, even legally. I know, I know that’s Italy but I hope the Italians can see that in some respects they are their own worst enemies. Another beef. Not all white Americans are rich and affluent. The latest figures I’ve seen, the affluent represent a very small percentage of the rest of us. My family lost their family farm in Holland, a very traumatic event that ultimately led to my great great grandfather to hang himself. The rest of the family immigrated to Iowa in the fall and lived in a sod house….you know the rest of the story. The only reason I have what I have is because of the hard work and sacrifice my ancestors did before me.
Whether it makes sense for Italy to have the policies it does is another topic, and a complex one. Regardless, the laws and regulations they've put in place shouldn't be ignored. I completely agree with you about the so-called preponderance of wealthy Americans, and people who think one must be wealthy to get an ERV are wrong. The required income (unofficially said to be around €32,000 per person) is about half of the average income of Americans in 2022, which was $66,755. It's pretty hard to live in the US on $32,000 a year. So the financial expectations of Italy regarding retirees do not, in fact, require great wealth. That said, the limitations on sources of that €32,000 can make it difficult.
My family too came from nothing. They left Italy with nothing and worked in stone sheds and and factories. My father was the first one in his family to go to college and my mother never did; she was expected to go to work. Wealth was never part of my family's story and isn't part of mine now.
Living in Italy, I hear how people from other countries out of EU struggle so much with Italian regulations so it was refreshing to hear this different perspective. Love that you talk about entitlement. because that's what not wanting to contribute to public services is
My friends who aren’t wealthy Americans often don’t have the option to be fraudulent — they either need the visa for university in order to be able to continue their studies or because visibly foreign born people are relentlessly profiled by the police here for ID checks (my dearest friend has had his ID checked four times in the last month, which I must admit does disgust me and my American sensibilities). The process of renewing his permesso was actually traumatic. But Americans don’t bother contesting with most, if not all of these systems. I just see it as them exercising the privilege they (mostly correctly) understand to have, and as long as they have it, they’ll keep using it. Lovely, well written article, appreciate you sharing your insight.
I think I know what you mean, but I have to say that a lot of the Americans who live in Italy aren't wealthy, and I include myself in that bunch. Wealth doesn't give them the freedom to be fraudulent, because the financial expectations of Italy for retirement income aren't that high compared to average salaries in the U.S. (See my reply to Tim's comment.) They are fraudulent because they have it in them to be so, because they want something that someone else is making it difficult to have. Entitlement is a big part of the picture, but I think people can have a sense of entitlement (due to race, upbringing, and good ol' narcissism) without being wealthy.
Thank you for reading and commenting, much appreciated!
Yes, exactly, at a time like this where Refugees and students struggle to have their basic rights respected, this post shows just how much entitlement there is on the part of more affluent expats.
Entitlement, yes. Wealth compared to many refugees, yes, but not compared to many Americans. The sad thing is it's been going on for a long, long time, not only at a time like this.
So, it's not something the affluent do? I'm only finding out about this through your post. I was completely oblivious until this morning. Like many Italians, I have this idea that Americans are the law-abiding ones compared to us.
Ah, got it! Sometimes true, unless you’re talking about gun violence, assaults, domestic abuse, and so on. (Dare I add grift, endangering national security, and tampering with elections?) Plenty of Americans don’t think domestic laws apply to them either. Wish I were kidding.
Oh my gosh! I have quit going onto the expat sites because all I see are complaints!!! "they make me do this...." "i can't do this....." "they are asking for this...." - the entitlement is ridiculous - but, coming from an American (me), not surprising. Add to that the general attitude toward "illegal" immigrants in the States, i also find it not just a little hypocritical! I, personally, find that Italy is keen on keeping on top of the immigration of stranieri while being open to them IF they agree to be a part of the country and not just using it. I haven't found any requirements here that i would not expect to find if i were immigrating to America - and I have certainly been welcomed more warmly than many immigrants would be welcomed there....(okay - that might have been a bit cynical but ....) Anyhow - great piece!
It's painful, isn't it? Totally agree with you, and thanks for reading and commenting. I'm always appreciative when people take the time to say they like my work.
Hi Cheryl. Great article and I agree. Please consider not using the name Karen as an insult. That could have happened to any name and unfortunately some people are not differentiating what it has become with the human beings with that name and mistreating them, because of adults perpetuating it. My Italian friends think its bizzare and awful. Cheryl is a lovely name bye the way. I'm sure your parents named you with love and care,as it's a precious part of your identity. Consider being better than that.
Point taken (though I could have done without the chastising "be better"), and since it was a throwaway remark and not essential to my own point, I've deleted it. I don't aim to offend. Glad you liked the rest of the piece, and thanks for reading.
Thank.you for reflecting and removing. Sorry you took my last sentence as chastising, as I felt I wrote a kind response. But note that some may consider some of the tone of your article ("pointing a finger" , mad, etc.) chastising, but I found it to be spot on, if people are attempting to do that.
You did, overall. And you’re right, what I wrote is chastising—of people who do indeed break the law, and maybe making them feel scrutinized will make them think twice about their actions. If only!
This was excellent. We are here for 365 tax paying days a year on an ERV. One of my guilty pleasures is those expat (another complicated word. I was an expat for almost 30 years. Now I am an immigrant) Facebook groups, watching the misinformation & outrage comments fly by.
Thanks, Gillian! I’m an immigrant too; it’s an important distinction. (I wrote about the difference between an immigrant and an expat in another post.) And yes, the amount of misinformation in those groups is astonishing, and unfortunately impossible to combat.
Thank you. I'm lucky, as an EU citizen I can move to Italy if I want (and I would love to!), but I share your feelings and comments about those who appear to think that reciprocal agreements just do not apply to them! I see so many in various social media groups who, as you rightly point out, try to "get around" things. Would they, or do they, try the same in their home countries? I wonder. Excellently written piece.
Thank you so much! I’m glad you liked it and appreciate your saying so. Good question about whether they’d do the same at home!
I went to college on the GI bill and worked nights and weekends or it definitely wouldn’t have happened. I paid my own way through 9 years of college.
I find it interesting that Italy is struggling with population decline and has done extensive/drastic steps to encourage immigration, such as the one Euro houses for sale, and on the other hand, Italy throws a n ocean of rules, regulations that seem to make things almost impossible for people to immigrate, even legally. I know, I know that’s Italy but I hope the Italians can see that in some respects they are their own worst enemies. Another beef. Not all white Americans are rich and affluent. The latest figures I’ve seen, the affluent represent a very small percentage of the rest of us. My family lost their family farm in Holland, a very traumatic event that ultimately led to my great great grandfather to hang himself. The rest of the family immigrated to Iowa in the fall and lived in a sod house….you know the rest of the story. The only reason I have what I have is because of the hard work and sacrifice my ancestors did before me.
Whether it makes sense for Italy to have the policies it does is another topic, and a complex one. Regardless, the laws and regulations they've put in place shouldn't be ignored. I completely agree with you about the so-called preponderance of wealthy Americans, and people who think one must be wealthy to get an ERV are wrong. The required income (unofficially said to be around €32,000 per person) is about half of the average income of Americans in 2022, which was $66,755. It's pretty hard to live in the US on $32,000 a year. So the financial expectations of Italy regarding retirees do not, in fact, require great wealth. That said, the limitations on sources of that €32,000 can make it difficult.
My family too came from nothing. They left Italy with nothing and worked in stone sheds and and factories. My father was the first one in his family to go to college and my mother never did; she was expected to go to work. Wealth was never part of my family's story and isn't part of mine now.
Living in Italy, I hear how people from other countries out of EU struggle so much with Italian regulations so it was refreshing to hear this different perspective. Love that you talk about entitlement. because that's what not wanting to contribute to public services is
Thank you, Elfin. And I appreciate your taking the time to comment.
Well said. I was actually commenting on another reply you received. Interesting fact, my father never attended college but my mother did.
Yes, I thought so. There’s more to that conversation now. My dad went to college on the GI bill, otherwise it probably wouldn’t have happened.
My friends who aren’t wealthy Americans often don’t have the option to be fraudulent — they either need the visa for university in order to be able to continue their studies or because visibly foreign born people are relentlessly profiled by the police here for ID checks (my dearest friend has had his ID checked four times in the last month, which I must admit does disgust me and my American sensibilities). The process of renewing his permesso was actually traumatic. But Americans don’t bother contesting with most, if not all of these systems. I just see it as them exercising the privilege they (mostly correctly) understand to have, and as long as they have it, they’ll keep using it. Lovely, well written article, appreciate you sharing your insight.
I think I know what you mean, but I have to say that a lot of the Americans who live in Italy aren't wealthy, and I include myself in that bunch. Wealth doesn't give them the freedom to be fraudulent, because the financial expectations of Italy for retirement income aren't that high compared to average salaries in the U.S. (See my reply to Tim's comment.) They are fraudulent because they have it in them to be so, because they want something that someone else is making it difficult to have. Entitlement is a big part of the picture, but I think people can have a sense of entitlement (due to race, upbringing, and good ol' narcissism) without being wealthy.
Thank you for reading and commenting, much appreciated!
Yes, exactly, at a time like this where Refugees and students struggle to have their basic rights respected, this post shows just how much entitlement there is on the part of more affluent expats.
Entitlement, yes. Wealth compared to many refugees, yes, but not compared to many Americans. The sad thing is it's been going on for a long, long time, not only at a time like this.
So, it's not something the affluent do? I'm only finding out about this through your post. I was completely oblivious until this morning. Like many Italians, I have this idea that Americans are the law-abiding ones compared to us.
Btw, who’s “us”?
Yes, not writing well from my phone. I meant that we Italians tend to think everyone is more law-abiding than them.
Ah, got it! Sometimes true, unless you’re talking about gun violence, assaults, domestic abuse, and so on. (Dare I add grift, endangering national security, and tampering with elections?) Plenty of Americans don’t think domestic laws apply to them either. Wish I were kidding.
I’m sure some of these folks are affluent, but I know, from personal experience, others who are not.